Honkai Patch 7.4 - Thelema Mad Pleasure: Shadowbringer Guide

Introduction

image from mihoyo :runfast:

[Mad Pleasure: Shadowbringer] is the new Thelema Battlesuit featured in version 7.4

Thelema is an S-rank Mech-Type melee Ice DPS / Astral Ring: World Star support!

Thelema is protected by the "Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny" Specialization.

She uses the new "Chain Blade" weapon in combat and can be called the First Selfish DPS featuring an entirely new playstyle and having a long screen-time giving her more time in the spotlight to shine!

She dashes around the battlefield with her high mobility and can change her abilities if she's in the air or on the ground, additionally she has the ability to stack large amounts of "Rime Trauma" for herself without relying on supports to freeze.

Thelema focuses on gaining Banquet Enjoyment from using different abilities such as Normal Attacks, Weapon Skills, and QTE. Banquet Enjoyment is her unique energy system that allows her to use her enhanced ability "Moment of Indulgence" to deal massive Ice damage. After activating the Astral Ring and triggering Stellar Outburst, she can tap on certain supports to trigger "Phantoms" to assist her in combat, but more on that later.

How to Obtain

After the v7.4 update Her banner will be up until MAY 24, you are guaranteed to get her Battlesuit in 90 Expansion Supply drops.

Character / Astral Ring Mechanics:

Instead of saying Mad Pleasure: Shadowbringer each and every time,

I will be referring to her throughout this guide as Thelema to make it easier to know who I am referring to.

Banquet Enjoyment

Thelema Banquet Enjoyment Stacks.

As mentioned in the introduction, Thelema's playstyle focuses on gaining Banquet Enjoyment then using it to trigger "Moment of Indulgence" her enhanced attack. You will start battle initially with 3 stacks if you have her weapon, and there are several ways to gain Banquet Enjoyment so lets cover that first.

• Entering Stellar Outburst restores your Banquet Enjoyment to the max. ( 6 )
• Basic ATK SEQ 3 restores 1 Banquet Enjoyment on hit.
• Combo ATKs restore 1 Banquet Enjoyment on hit.
• Holding Weapon ATK on the ground or in midair restores 1 Banquet Enjoyment.
• Tapping Weapon ATK on the ground or in midair restores 1 Banquet Enjoyment.
• Ultimate Evasions restore 1 Banquet Enjoyment.
• QTE gives 2 Banquet Enjoyment on hit.
• If you have her S2 Rank-up then you will restore all stacks of Banquet Enjoyment after using her Ultimate.

Technically, while you can gain 2 Banquet Enjoyment from her QTE that is something she cannot currently take advantage of most of the time on her main team, she can however utilize her QTE in her alternative and support team.

For more information check out the QTE and Rotation sections.

When her Banquet enjoyment is at 6 stacks you can use Basic ATK or Weapon ATK to trigger "A Moment of Indulgence" to gather enemies and deal a large amount of Ice DMG ( considered Combo ATK DMG )

A Moment of Indulgence

Additionally, "A Moment of Indulgence" will restore 20 points of Astral Ring Intensity.

Note:

Generating Banquet Enjoyment from different methods will increase the attack multiplier of the next "Moment of Indulgence"

this essentially means that you are rewarded for using different combos instead of spamming Basic ATK endlessly.

Because of this Thelema has an additional layer of flexibility and ways to optimize the "best" way to gain energy since it could differ according to the situation.

If you have perfect timing you can even trigger Ultimate Evasion this way.

Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny

When Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny is activated Thelema will gain different effects aimed to enhance her DPS capabilities and unlock her true potential as a damage dealer.

Characters on standby cannot be switched to in combat anymore, they will be replaced by "Phantoms" to aid you in combat!

After entering Stellar Outburst, all Banquet enjoyment will be restored.

Phantoms

"Arise"

Thelema has the Astral Ring Specialization passive of "Harmonized Shadow Star"

After activating the Astral Ring system and while set as the team leader all team members with the "Phantom" tag will gain additional enhancements.

As you can see above this has the ability to do one of two things.

1. Turn her teammates into Phantoms, they will then support you on the field like it's Elysian Realm.
2. Turn herself into a Phantom, this probably means that like Senadina she will have support capabilities in the future.

Note:

Since it currently requires her to be set as the team leader this means that she likely needs a future character with the same or similar passive to be the team leader enabling her to accomplish #2.

Thelema Phantom

Phantoms accomplish several things that make them invaluable as a support.

1. Phantoms deal 800% ATK of Ice damage when launching support attacks, letting them benefit from any weather effects!
2. Character will gain the "Rondo in the Shadows" buff after casting Phantom support letting attacks generate Phantoms.
3. Phantoms generated from attacks will restore Banquet Enjoyment, deal bonus damage + boost Thelema attack multipliers.

Senadina's Phantom deals more damage than ordinary Phantoms, while providing buffs. It will be optimal to use Senadina's Phantom first. Note: Phantoms are not considered summoned entities outside of Elysian Realm.

Because of the higher Attack obtained from Phantoms as well as the bonus Banquet Enjoyment, there will be an emphasis on normal attacks alongside Weapon skills during Stellar Outburst to capitalize on the Phantom Mechanics. In doing so you can reach the maximum damage output by doing 3 Basic Attacks followed by tapping the Weapon active.

Phantoms' generated from attacks

Astral Ring: World Star

When Astral Ring: World star is activated she will lose access to her Phantom Mechanics in exchange for gaining various effects, many of which helping her to function as a support for the leader through passives resonance attacks and effects.

1. For each team member with Astral Ring: World Star, the entire team will deal 10% bonus damage outside Stellar Outburst.
2. The cooldown of Stellar Outburst will be reduced by 5 seconds, this effect is exclusive.
3. During Stellar Outburst, Total DMG is increased by 6%
4. After entering Stellar Outburst Thelema will gain 6 Quantum Mech energy that replaces Banquet Enjoyment.
5. Each point of Quantum Mech Energy can be used to use "Moment of Indulgence: Sick" once which is a Resonance Attack.
6. When Astral Ring: World Star is activated, casting Moment of Indulgence enhances all team members making them deal 6% bonus Total DMG for every World Star member and making enemies take 8% bonus Total DMG for 25s.

Using Moment of Indulgence: Sick or Moment of Indulgence at the cost of Quantum Mech energy will cause it to deal 100% bonus Ice DMG and boost Elemental Breach by 10%

Moment of Indulgence: Sick (Resonance Attack)

When Astral Ring: World Star is activated, in Stellar Outburst Thelema can use her Resonance Attack to trigger the Domain Resonance of the other members of the team. Think of it like this, a character drops a "bomb" and the other character is used to detonate said bomb. Thelema is a much better trigger for the Resonance marks than Coralie is, being able to Trigger Senadina's Domain Resonance 6 times while dealing more damage and providing more buffs.

Triggering her Resonance attack will restore HP for the entire team

Abilities

Thelema Skills Page

Leader Skill

When Thelema is the leader she will activate Astral Ring Specialization: Wheel of Destiny and provide enhancements based on the number of team members with the Harmonized Shadow Star passive on the team.

Harmonized Shadow Star Buffs

1. One Team Member - Shadow Star Attacks from the entire team will deal 18% more Total DMG.
2. Two Team Members - The team deals 16% more Ice DMG outside Stellar Outburst and Harmonized Shadow Star members share Stellar Drain effects.
3. Three Team Members - Enemies take 12% more Ice DMG from characters on the field ( Independent )

Stellar Outburst

Thelema Stellar Outburst costs 140 Astral Ring Intensity and has a duration of 21 seconds. The cooldown is 20 seconds but it will not start until Stellar Outburst is over, you additionally cannot gain any Astral Ring Intensity until Stellar outburst is over.

Stellar Outburst animation

Stellar Outburst is an enhancement mode that grants certain characters special abilities, namely the ones covered beforehand such as Phantoms alongside other buff effects. To use Stellar Outburst, you would need to have a sufficient amount of Astral Ring Intensity which is gained in certain ways exclusive to Astral Ring characters.

There is no specific time to use Stellar Outburst as it will vary depending on the situation, some examples will be covered in the rotation section. Finally, this system is only utilized with the part 2 team and will not be present with Part 1 supports.

You can technically still use her as the leader, but can't properly take advantage of the Astral Ring system due to a lack of Astral Ring Intensity. In this case you would rather use Jade Knight as the team leader and pair her with an ELF over an Astral OP.

Passives

Thelema has quite a few passive effects but I will try to summarize them~

1. Thelema Starts battle with 35 SP that can be triggered once per 10 minutes in open world.
2. If Thelema moves, jumps, or evades after not attacking for 1 second then the next attack deals bonus Ice DMG.
3. When getting Banquet Enjoyment from an attack if it's a different attack than the last one that gave Banquet Enjoyment then it will deal 210% bonus Ice DMG.
4. Damage done to shields increased by 15% , with Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny activated then the character on field will deal 65% bonus damage to shields and she will deal 60% bonus DMG to shields. Deal bonus damage in Stellar Outburst.
5. Deal Bonus damage when Astral Ring is not activated / Bonus DMG to bio / Enemies take 27% more Ice DMG from her (independent)
6. Deal 24% Bonus Total DMG to BIO-type enemies.
7. Thelema has 4% more Elemental Breach and takes 35% less Total DMG. Combo ATK deals 25% more Total DMG and will restore 300 HP if your HP is under half.
8. When Banquet Enjoyment is fully charged you can tap ATK or Weapon to directly cast Moment of Indulgence, this can be toggled on or off in the skill menu.

Improvised Dance Steps

What turning this on does is make it so that when your Banquet Enjoyment is fully charged you can tap ATK or Weapon to directly cast Moment of Indulgence without needing to use Jump + ATK or Evasion + ATK to cast it.

I personally recommend leaving this on but there are some benefits to turning it off.

The main benefit to this is you won't auto cast Moment of Indulgence in Memorial Arena, and can continue to do some basic attacks letting you hit certain damage thresholds before you go into the animation which can be commonly needed.

It's also quite easy to maximize this in Memorial Arena because you can take advantage of Ultimate / Astral Ring animations and "pre-cast" the evade + attack animation assuming you are on PC and it will come out at the soonest possible frame.

As for Abyss, well that depends. having it on will be nearly frame perfect and when you have to do 10 Moment of Indulgence in a single run it suddenly becomes alot harder to maximize.

If you use evasion 1 single frame too early then you will cancel out of the ability before you gain the Banquet Enjoyment = restart

If you use evasion too late then suddenly it's slower than having the passive turned on and that's another restart.

You also don't often rotate in a way where you can "pre-cast" the evade + attack animation to get the easy frame perfect.

For Abyss there is a potential gain of 1-2 points if you turn this off and play perfectly, if that's worth it would be up to you.

Evasion

Evasion showcase

Thelema can evade twice in a row and Jump, having the ability to jump lets her evade certain attacks that cannot be dodged with normal evasion skills. Her Ultimate Evasion skill will trigger Global Time Fracture for 3 seconds with a 15 second cooldown.

It will also make the next attack deal 280% ATK of extra Ice damage and give 1 Banquet Enjoyment.

If you gain a Banquet Enjoyment with this method then the next Moment of Indulgence will deal 75% ATK of bonus Ice DMG.

Getting full stacks of Banquet Enjoyment will restore an aerial evasion charge.

Note:

Thelema is one of the first characters we have got in quite some time that actually wants to look out for chances to use Ultimate Evasion, especially if you are going up against an aggressive boss. If you trigger her Ultimate Evasion you will additionally get 1 Banquet Enjoyment and restore 2 Astral Ring Intensity, something that's quite large for a character this reliant on Stellar Outburst

did I mention it also adds a 280% ATK multiplier to the next attack?

Combo Attack

Thelema Combo Attack Showcase

Thelema's combo attack has different animations depending on if you are on the ground or in the air.

Her Combo ATK restores 1 Banquet Enjoyment on hit and using her Combo ATK can situationally be beneficial if you need to go from a grounded state to aerial state or vice versa.

If you have full Banquet Enjoyment you will trigger Moment of Indulgence instead.

Ultimate

Thelema Ultimate

Thelema can use 100 SP to use her Ultimate triggering a multi hit attack dealing a large amount of Ice damage during which she becomes invincible and triggers Time-frozen Domain ( pauses all skill and stage timers and Ultimate has a 24 second cooldown).

If Thelema is the leader she will also restore 10 SP for other Harmonized Shadow Star characters if she lands it on an enemy.

When her Ultimate is on cooldown Moment of Indulgence will reduce it by 3 seconds on hit, up to 3 times for each Ultimate cast.

Note:

If you have her Signature weapon then after her Ultimate is finished she will trigger Time-frozen Domain for 3 seconds.

Switching characters will end her Time-frozen Domain immediately.

This makes her weapon AMAZING and everyone who pulls her should try to get it no questions asked, more on her weapon capabilities will be discussed in the Weapon section.

Sometimes it can be beneficial to start her sequence with her Ultimate.

Basic Attack / QTE

Basic ATK:

Thelema Basic ATK Sequences

Thelema can tap attack in the air or on the ground to use her Basic ATK "Tri-Strike" as the name implies it's a 3 sequence

Basic attack combo with the last hit having high damage, restoring Banquet Enjoyment on hit, and increasing her Ignore Interrupt for 12 seconds. Her Basic ATK also renders enemies in a "Weakened" state for 20 seconds which gives several effects.

1. Thelema will deal 20% bonus DMG to the shields of a Weakened enemy.
2. Weakened enemies will have less "Super Armor Break" ( Their attacks will be less interruptive )
3. Weakened enemies will deal 10% less DMG.

QTE:

Thelema QTE

Thelema's QTE will be triggered if an enemy is Time-Slowed, if they take 15 hits in a 3 second time frame or when Time-Frozen domain triggered by teammate ends. Her QTE will deal a large amount of Ice DMG and restore 2 Banquet Enjoyment on hit and trigger 2 seconds of global Time Fracture. Thelema's QTE can be toggled on or off in the Skill Menu.

Note:

Unfortunately it is extremely rare to trigger her QTE with Coralie since that means you need to dodge an attack, Senadina isn't switched to outside of Kevin / Benares boss in Abyss because you will lose buffs for the rest of the fight if you do.

You can however make use of this more frequently in her alternative team or if she's supporting Senadina.

Weapon Skills

Thelema has different forms of her Weapon active, animation and effects will change depending on how it is triggered

( If you tap or hold the Weapon button ) and if you are in the air or on the ground.

Both forms of Thelema Weapon Active (Tap)

Tapping the Weapon Active will deal more damage and have the ability to gather enemies.

Both forms of Thelema Weapon Active (Hold)

Holding the Weapon Active will deal less damage, but apply a large amount of Rime Trauma ( 12 points )

This can be triggered up to 3 times and will function as Thelema's main way of applying "Rime Trauma" to Freeze.

Landing Moment of Indulgence will restore 1 charge letting you apply Rime Trauma again.

If you are on the ground you will also charge behind the enemy and use a spin attack giving her insane amounts of mobility.

Note:

You can visually see how many more times you can trigger this before needing to use Moment of Indulgence again

by checking the Rime Trauma trigger buff. You don't NEED to freeze unless you gain some benefit for it so don't spam it off CD.

It has more situational uses where some bosses it's amazing and others you don't need to.

Using it in the air will result in more damage but a longer animation.

Using it on the ground will be less damage but a faster animation.

Skill Unlock Costs

Total cost of Advanced Skill Material: 136

Total Coin cost: 4,152,910

Team Lineups

The team composed of Thelema Senadina and Coralie is is her main DPS team that I would call her "Phantom" team.

The goal here is to capitalize on Senadina's off field support capabilities and turn Thelema into a "Solo DPS".

This is enabled even more during Stellar Outburst where off field characters will be turned into Phantoms to join you in combat.

I have seen people ask if Coralie can be replaced in this team, she cannot in this current version because we do not have any characters who would be better than her. Coralie is superior to a fully geared SSS rank completely maxed out Jade Knight and Shigure Kira, their buffs don't last long enough their damage amplification is worse and they do not generate Astral Ring Intensity or have the Phantom mechanic.

Proper Warning:

In this team you do not want to switch to Senadina outside of EXTREMELY niche things such as Kevin boss which is only due to his mechanics, you will lose one of her buffs for the rest of the fight with no way to re-trigger it if you switch to her.

You also don't want to ever have Coralie's QTE on and should disable it from the skill Menu, If left on it will ruin the rotation by doubling the amount of time before you can switch back onto Thelema leading to an awkward period of time where you just stand there on Coralie for 4~ seconds waiting to be able to switch back.

Note:

In Patch 7.4 Senadina's new Support Skill was unlocked and the Astral Ring attribute, Harmonized Shadow Star was enabled.

During Stellar Outburst, characters protected by Wheel of Destiny can trigger Senadina phantoms to attack dealing damage and consuming up to 30 SP to increase the deployed characters Total DMG by 0.5 x SP consumed for up to 30s. When 30 SP has been consumed then all attacks will gain 16% Elemental Breach for 30 seconds!

This is her alternative team is what I like to call her "Ice team"

This team is mainly used if you don't have Senadina and while rare can perform similarly on some bosses. The idea here as the name implies is to forego Stellar Outburst entirely since it wouldn't be optimized to try using it without an Astral Ring team. due to the lack of Astral Ring Intensity and buffs not lasting for her entire field time, thus Jade Knight will be utilized as the team leader.

This team actually rotates like any other Jade Knight + Sugary Starburst rotation making it easy to get the hang of but unfortunately means Thelema will not have her Phantom mechanics.

This is the team used when she is supporting Senadina, this team is often called the "Domain Resonance Team" and will be covered in my Senadina related guide here !in great detail! The idea however is to use Thelema to trigger Senadina and Helia's Domain Resonance with her Resonance Attack turning her into an amazing support for the team able to do much more damage than Coralie while simultaneously providing better buffs, having Time-frozen Domain and triggering more Domain Resonance.

How to Play: DPS

Thelma Senadina Coralie Rotation

This is the rotation you will do when you have enough Astral Ring Intensity and there aren't any conflicting cooldowns.

Coralie QTE should be OFF to prevent it from messing up subsequent rotations, triggering QTE will extend ( double ) the amount of time you have to wait before being able to switch back to Thelema!!

1. Switch to Coralie, double jump then use Weapon Active
2. Switch to Thelema since you aren't able to trigger her QTE in this team on demand.
3. Thelema Basic ATK Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon Active -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Moment of Indulgence.
4. Thelema Basic ATK Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon Active -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Repeat then Moment of Indulgence.
5. Stellar Outburst -> Moment of Indulgence -> Tap Senadina -> Ultimate
6. Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon Active -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Moment of Indulgence ( Repeat this 3x )
7. Tap Coralie ( looks like Thelema ) -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon Active -> Ultimate -> Basic Attack Sequence 3
8. Indulgence -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon Active -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon Active -> Indulgence

If you want to optimize this even further you can try the advanced combos found in "Attack Sequences"

For example, you can use Combo Attack during Stellar Outburst to cancel the hit lag of Weapon Active.

Note:

If you do not have Songque this rotation is still possible with Dreamseeker provided you do an extra Basic ATK sequence but you will need to stall for time if you are using Elysia ELF due to her lacking initial Astral Ring Intensity.

You don't have to do the exact same Sequence here, for example steps 3-4 can be replaced with other combos which may be superior depending on the situation, you may find some examples in the "Thelema Attack Sequences" section. The best time to use Ultimate depends on your damage and while this is the general rotation there are many situations where you want to usei t earlier, notably at the start of the fight.

You can also choose to save 3 Banquet Enjoyment for the following rotation without Stellar Outburst if needed, but this is more of a tip for comfort to make the rotations a bit easier.

Basic Rotation Video:

Advanced Rotation Video ( Higher DPS )

This is a good example of a rotation you can do when you are aiming for DPS and can afford to cut down on the damage slightly.

It does 48.5m damage with 1.3m DPS

Compared to 50m dmg with 1.22m DPS

For a rotation without Stellar Outburst such as the subsequent rotation, you would want to do the following...

1. Switch to Coralie, Jump then Weapon Active
2. Switch back to Thelema, Tap Weapon Active then Hold Weapon Active
3. Use Thelema's Combo Attack twice ( Hold attack button )
4. Tap Weapon Active once more then Hold Weapon Active
5. Moment of Indulgence, repeat this rotation on Thelema if more Astral Ring Intensity is needed.

Small Rotation Video:

If that's too hard for you to do then you could achieve a similar yet often diminished effect by doing the following combo.

Weapon Active -> Hold Weapon Active ( Loop this 3 times ) For more potential combos check her "Attack Sequences" section.

If you have SS+ Rank Songque, then it's entirely possible to use her Stellar Outburst two rotations in a row.

Double Outburst Video:

Jade Knight Kira Thelema Rotation

Notes:

This team should be fine for Red Lotus Abyss in the event you don't have Senadina

It won't scale well with increasing Disturbances though, especially in Nirvana.

I would recommend you watch gameplay and decide if you like this playstyle compared to her main one.

Rotation:

1. Switch to Kira and use Charged Attack -> Jade Knight QTE -> Weapon Active -> Basic ATK -> Tap Ult -> Hold Ultimate
2. Jade Knight Hold ATK -> Kira Ultimate -> Fire 3 Shots -> Kira Charged Attack -> Thelema QTE -> Thelema Ultimate
3. Thelema Tap Weapon -> Moment of Indulgence --> Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold -> Basic Attack Sequence 3
4. Thelema Hold Attack -> Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold -> Indulgence -> Tap Weapon -> Hold Weapon -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Tap Weapon -> Jade Knight QTE -> Farm SP and repeat from Jade Knight Hold Ultimate.

You can pretty much just loop this rotation without needing to worry about mini rotations, you can see an example in the video.

Also keep in mind, the sequence used on Thelema is just an example and can be better or worse depending on the situation.

If you don't want to optimize I recommend alternating Basic Attack Sequence 3 into tapping Weapon active.

If you do want to optimize then you can use the one above or a different one from "Thelema Attack Sequences" section.

Video:

Note:

This team has extremely fast rotations, buffs don't last long enough to force more field time so it's better to collect 3-4 stacks of Banquet Enjoyment in preparation for the next rotation and make sure you can use Jade Knight QTE without it timing out.

Senadina Thelema Helia Rotation

Basic Rotation:

1. Thelema Tap Weapon Active -> Ultimate -> Hold Weapon Active -> Basic Attack Sequence 3 -> Indulgence
2. Helia QTE -> Weapon Active -> Tap Weapon Active when it flashes
3. Sena QTE -> Weapon Active -> Basic Attack -> Weapon Active -> Ultimate -> Weapon Active
4. Sena Evade + Attack -> Weapon Active -> Weapon Active
5. Sena Stellar Outburst -> Weapon Active x3
6. Helia QTE -> Weapon Active -> Press Weapon Active as soon as you can
7. Thelema QTE -> Basic Attack x 6 ( Trigger Domain Resonance + Indulgence ) -> Ultimate
8. Thelma Weapon Tap + Weapon Hold or Basic Sequence 3
9. Senadina QTE -> Weapon Active x3
10. Senadina Evade + Attack -> Attack -> Weapon Active -> Weapon Active -> Ultimate

Video:

For a rotation without Stellar Outburst such as the subsequent rotation, you would want to do the following rotation.

1. Helia QTE -> Weapon Active -> Tap again when it's flashing
2. Thelema QTE -> Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold
3. Senadina QTE -> Weapon Active -> Weapon Active -> Attack -> Weapon Active x2
4. Senadina Evade + Attack -> Weapon Active x2
5. Helia QTE -> Weapon Active -> Tap again when its flashing
6. Thelema QTE -> Ultimate -> Indulgence -> Weapon Active Tap + Hold
7. Senadina QTE

Video:

This allows you to rotate in a way that when you switch back to Thelema she will have 2 stacks of Banquet Enjoyment from before plus 2 from QTE, she can enter field and use her ultimate then quickly gain 2 stacks to cast Indulgence again.

Note:

S2 Thelema will gain full stacks of Banquet Enjoyment after using her Ultimate making her rotations as a support alot easier but not needed, I will explain the way to optimize her stacks below.

Advanced Tip:

This is a bit harder to do but lets you get 4 stacks of Banquet Enjoyment after her Ultimate.

This is important because you could use her Indulgence every rotation if you are able to rotate this way thanks to her QTE.

Keep in mind, there will be times where you want her QTE off or to switch in and use Ultimate right away.

Thelema Attack Sequences

Thelema is a character that is very flexible with a large amount of possible combos ( likely the most in the game up til this point )

She isn't the kind of character that just loops the same combo endlessly if you are trying to maximize damage, rather she has different combos that are the best in different situations. This section will cover some of her more prevalent combos.

Basic SEQ 3 -> Tap Weapon -> Basic SEQ 3 (Standard 3 stack Rotation)

This is the "bread and butter" combo and easiest one to do, just alternate between 3 Basic ATK -> Weapon Tap.

It does more damage than the following combo, but is slower.

Note:

The score difference will not be large if you choose to spam this much easier combo, you won't be penalized if you choose to play her this way but if you are short 15~ points then you could optimize by using the better combos, this gives her a low floor high ceiling.

Basic SEQ 3 -> Tap Weapon -> Hold Weapon ( Fast way to gain 3 stacks, less dpr highest dps )

This is a fast combo done when you need to get 3 stacks in as short of a time frame as possible.

It has the added benefit of giving Rime Trauma to freeze. You do slightly less damage per rotation than the combo before this, but can normally make up for that with the faster animations.

This is the combo I would recommend in general, it has better frame data than most of the other combos which results in the highest DPS most of the time.

But of course there will be situations where the others are superior.

Note:

You can evade cancel out of the Weapon Hold to save some points and speed the rotation up.

Basic SEQ 3 -> Hold Weapon -> Basic SEQ 3 (Rime Trauma)

This combo can be done when you need the rime trauma but also the higher damage sequence as opposed to using

Basic SEQ 3 -> Tap Weapon -> Hold Weapon

Weapon Attack -> Weapon Hold ( Fastest way to gain 6 stacks, less damage )

This one can be useful in situations where you just want to reach the max Banquet Enjoyment as fast as possible!

For example, if you don't have the time to use the longer ones before activating Stellar Outburst, this would have higher theoretical damage.

Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold -> Hold Basic ATK -> Hold Basic ATK -> Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold ( More Damage )

This combo takes a little bit longer and is mainly used when you need to get 6 Banquet Enjoyment rather than 3 but it has higher damage output than the other combos and is technically one of the best general combos if you need high damage per rotation.

Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold -> Basic SEQ 3 -> Hold Basic ATK -> Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold ( High Damage )

This combo is just an alternate variant of the combo above where you use Basic ATK SEQ 3 instead

It's made to be easier to remember than the combo above and while less flashy it deals similar damage.

Note:

This may look or seem hard but I came up with a way for you to memorize it easier.

If you think of the Basic SEQ 3 as tapping then it's essentially Tap -> Hold -> Tap -> Hold -> Tap -> Hold

alternating between Basic ATK and Weapon ATK.

Basic SEQ 3 -> Weapon Tap -> Weapon Hold ( Stellar Outburst )

This Combo works really well if you are in a situation where you want to keep a boss frozen or apply extra rime.

Note:

If you use moment of Indulgence too fast after the weapon hold you could cancel out of the Phantom spawn, this will result in decreased damage.

You may want to use Sequence 3 > Weapon Hold -> Combo ATK

Basic SEQ 3 -> Weapon Tap -> Combo Attack ( Stellar Outburst )

This deals higher damage in a shorter period of time where the Basic ATK Sequence 3 -> Weapon Active requires you to extend the rotation or deal less damage per rotation + damage per second.

This combo will be superior in damage and in DPS especially if you have enough damage to do a clean kill.

here is a video of the basic combo loop for a fair comparison.

Note:

If you need Rime trauma, you can replace the weapon tap with a weapon hold.

Advanced Rotation -

As you can see, looking only at the damage done during Stellar Outburst the advanced rotation had over 3 million more damage and slightly more damage per second.

Bonus Tips:

If you get the last Moment of Indulgence with a grounded Weapon Attack it's possible to cancel the animation but you do lose out on all the damage from it because the blade goes away early.

Weapon Infographic

Banquet Rose: Faux Crown

Thelema's Signature weapon can be obtained from the Gacha within 60 pulls.

It is an extremely powerful weapon and a requirement if you want her to play optimally.

The 3 second Time-frozen Domain makes a huge difference in utility for both the DPS and support team, without any weapon being able to work as an adequate substitute. As a DPS the Time-frozen domain indirectly extends the duration of her field time and Stellar Outburst letting her make the most of her Astral Ring Intensity, while as a support it allows her to stack up 2-3 Banquet Enjoyment for the following rotation enabling her to use her Indulgence to buff the team more frequently.

It also brings support effects such as "the team deals 30% more Total DMG with Resonance Attacks". Don't think it stops there her buffs are not just for the Elemental Team but for the Physical team too for example "deal 20% more Elemental and Physical Damage" which foreshadows Thelema's possible future support capabilities just like Senadina.

Now let us quickly go over the buffs and passives gained from her weapon aside from synergy which will be covered right after.

• After Ultimate hits enemies, trigger 3 seconds of Time-frozen Domain.
• Outside of Stellar Outburst, Ultimate Evasion restores 2 Astral Ring Intensity
• Gain 3 Initial Banquet Enjoyment and the next Moment of Indulgence deals extra damage.
• Gain 20% Total Damage in Stellar Outburst, enemies on field take 16% more Ice damage from her.
• Characters protected by Wheel of Destiny deal 20% more Elemental and Physical damage.
• Team deals 30% more Total DMG with Resonance Attacks and Phantom attacks.
• Deal 30% more Ice DMG when you have the Harmonized Shadow Star.
• Enemies hit by Time-Frozen Domain expiry will take 18% more Total DMG for 25s.
• When entering Stellar Outburst or when Wheel of Destiny is activated, characters with Wheel of destiny will increase Total Damage taken by enemies when their Ultimate hits

Weapon Synergy

Banquet Rose: Faux Crown Weapon Sync

As you can see above, her weapon Sync increases the amount of Total DMG taken from characters on the field by 3% per level.

Additionally, it reduces the SP cost of her first Ultimate cast at the start of the battle by 10 SP per level.

The main benefit in Abyss would actually be the Total DMG taken, increasing the Independent multiplier and benefitting not just her but whoever she is supporting. The SP is only really utilized in Memorial Arena since she has good SP regeneration without running into any issues using her Ultimate especially in the Abyss where she starts off with 90 SP.

While seeing "reduced SP cost" did initially make alot of players in the Honkai discord panic, the reality is the effect isn't that big in a live setting. This is more for the players who are trying to place in the top 10 Memorial Arena, in their case the Sync is huge.

If you want to go for Weapon Sync I would recommend you get Thelema to S2 rank and Songque to SS rank first.

They provide much more value compared to the cost while giving way more utility and flexibility.

Time-frozen Domain

As you can see in the video below, after using her Ultimate as long as she has this weapon she will trigger "Time frozen-domain"

for three seconds, since she can use her Ultimate twice per rotation that's effectively 6 seconds of Time frozen-domain per rot.

You can use the excess time to DPS or gather stacks of Banquet Enjoyment, but switching characters will end it prematurely.

Phantom Seafarer

Phantom Seafarer can be crafted in the Foundry for 150 AE Imaginon.

This weapon unfortunately manages to do nothing more than be a stat stick without any amazing passives for DPS or support.

Since the Chain Blades are a new weapon launched this patch, it unfortunately means that this is the only possible alternative.

The main issue with this weapon is the fact that it's lacking in every way compared to her Gacha weapon so I would highly highly highly recommend you get it! This one doesn't even have Time-frozen Domain after Ultimate which would lead to a further score loss not properly reflected in raw damage testing.

The rotation on this weapon changes too since you no longer have the 3 Banquet Enjoyment.

To summarize the buffs gained from this weapon...

• After hitting an enemy with a Basic ATK, deal 19% more Total DMG with Combo ATK.
• After hitting an enemy with a Combo ATK, deal 19% more Total DMG with Basic ATK.
• Character deals 4% more Total DMG. In Stellar Outburst it is increased by another 2% ( Please don't increase Synergy )
• 165 Attack 11 CRT

Now I see you asking me, why is this weapon still at level 35? and I'm glad you asked.

If you don't have a weapon for her, I do recommend you craft this weapon and upgrade it to 35.

It costs 150 AE- Imaginon and when you dismantle it you will get 3 Honkai Shards back.

So it's a low cost temporary weapon that lets you refund the AE Imaginon into Honkai Shards when you are done with it, but that's only true if you keep the weapon at level 35.

Upgrading the weapon will cost 9 Total Honkai Shards in return for a small stat gain.

As you can see here, a level 50 weapon returns 3 Honkai Shards the same as the level 35 variant, you effectively lose 6 Honkai Shards on a temporary weapon if you decide to upgrade this so do it at your own risk!

Note:

Weapon Synergy takes this a step further, you cannot dismantle it anymore if you get the weapon to synergy 2.

You cannot use it to craft the pri-arm weapon either.

Damage Comparison.

Keep in mind this is a raw damage test and may not reflect the score loss in live content.

For Phantom Seafarer, you will have to do a different rotation due to the 3 less initial Banquet Enjoyment on entry.

If you forcibly do the same rotation the damage will indeed be higher (you will need to if you don't have Songque anyway)

Banquet Rose S1 - 50,204,608 Damage video here

Banquet Rose S2 - 51,263,808 Damage video here

Banquet Rose S3 - 52,310,272 Damage video here

Phantom Seafarer 35 - 20,824,832 Damage video here (25,614,543 Damage on extended rotation )

Phantom Seafarer 50 - 22,829,184 Damage video here (28,233,472 Damage on extended rotation )

Conclusion:

Pull Banquet Rose if you plan to use Thelema, there is a massive difference between her weapon and the only alternative.

Weapon "Synergy" isn't a must for Banquet Rose, but with Phantom Seafarer it should be completely avoided.

Phantom Seafarer pales in comparison to the damage per rotation.. Leveling it from 35 to 50 does almost nothing.

Stigmata Infographic

All of Thelema's stigmata will be craftable in the foundry for 600 Ether Fuel and 2 Source Prisms.

Additionally, during the Patch 7.4 Events you will get a box that provides you with one of her stigmata for free through login.

This means that at worst case scenario you only need to craft 2 of her Stigmata!

I would recommend saving the aforementioned box until you have 2/3 of her Stigmata, then use it to get the last piece.

Splendors of Amber Set Overview

Splendors of Amber Stigmata set

Top Piece: Songque Teatime (T)

The Top Stigmata piece is focused primarily towards increasing her offensive capabilities giving a large amount of self DPS buffs.

• Increases self Ice DMG by 30% and Combo ATK Ice damage by an additional 30%
• When Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny is activated, each Harmonized Shadow Star character in the team makes the user deal 10% more Total Damage outside of Stellar Outburst.

Middle Piece: Thelema: The Banquet (M)

Her middle Stigmata piece is fairly important but requires the "Share a Glass" effect to be used properly which is locked behind the 3 piece Stigmata set bonus.

• 30% Basic, Combo and Charged ATK's deal 30% more Ice DMG.
• Enemies take 20% more Ice DMG from her if she has "Share a Glass"
• When Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny is activated, all teammates with Harmonized Shadow Star deals 30% more Elemental and Crit DMG outside Stellar Outburst

Bottom Piece: Litost: Night Watch (B)

And Finally, her bottom Stigmata piece that focuses on increasing her support capabilities giving alot of World Star buffs.

• Share a Glass boosts character Elemental DMG by 15%
• When Astral Ring: World Star is activated and characters with Domain Resonance have "Share a Glass" deal 20% more Total DMG and 20% more Lightning DMG.

2 Piece Set Bonus: In a Moment of Splendor

Her two piece set bonus is quite strong and serves to provide some DPS and Support Effects like shield-break which will come in handy against shielded bosses, and further buffs to the World Star branch of Astral Ring directed towards supporting Senadina.

• Increases Total DMG by 18% and before Astral Ring is activated it's increased by another 35%
• Team deals 20% more DMG to shields. When Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny is activated it increases by another 20%
• With World Star activated, for each character protected by it enemies will take 7% more Elemental DMG and 7% more Total DMG.

3 Piece Set Bonus: Centenary Glow

Her three piece set bonus is absolutely massive and by far the highest priority to obtain.

If you have limited prisms, don't upgrade her other Stigmata pieces past 35 until you have the full set crafted.

Without the three piece bonus, you aren't able to get the "Share a Glass" effect that the other stigmata pieces need.

This not only unlocks alot of additional DPS benefits for her, but support effects for when she is supporting Senadina.

I warn you from now, this set is absolutely massive so it will be alot of information to digest.

• Increases Ice DMG by 20% and Total DMG by 20%
• Attacks give the entire team "Share a Glass" for 25 seconds, duration can be refreshed.
• Before Astral Ring is activated, this effect will make all enemies on field take 30% more Total DMG from Thelema.
• When Astral Ring: World Star is activated, enemies take 9% more Total DMG. When Thelema is on the field enemies take 18% More Total DMG from Resonance Attack
• When Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny is activated characters with it will grant teammates "Share a Glass" when dealing damage. The effect will cause all enemies on field to take 30% more Total DMG from characters with Wheel of Destiny.
• You will also increase your Elemental and Total DMG by 18% and increase their Total DMG taken by 12% during Stellar Outburst.

Willows can work as a temporary set while you aim to craft hers but If you don't already have Willows then it is recommended to use whatever you have on hand such as Peary TMB and not aim to craft Willows. It's only function is as a transitionary set

.

Willows Damage Test

Results:

Splendors of Amber TMB

Willows TMB

Affixes

6 ATK Affixes - The general recommendation, this will apply to almost everyone reading this guide. This is pretty self explanatory but you would run All Six Attack lines to increase her damage, which will almost always be the best choice.

Event SP Affixes - This probably won't apply to most people reading this but it's good to include it anyway, there will be incredibly niche situations mainly in Memorial where you want her to have 1-2 SP affixes ( 0.4 SP/s and 2.7% SP cost reduction )

Keep in mind that if you want to chase this you will need to craft 1-2 more stigmata and upgrade them all over again costing up to 18 more prisms and a-lot of materials! I would recommend you stick to 6 ATK Affixes if you aren't in the top 0.1%

Stigmata Upgrade Priority.

When you look at the stigmata, you can see that the Middle and Top Piece combined favor her as a DPS, and the Bottom and Middle piece together favor her as a support. Honestly, this was hell to test just for the conclusion to be "It depends"

If you play both teams then I would give priority to Thelema DPS if it's at the start of the patch where the Abyss favors her, if not then I would recommend you upgrade them at the same time keeping all three at the same level.

Before upgrading any stigmata, make sure you completed the entire stigmata set first.

Astral OP's and ELF comparison

Does She need Songque?

Get back here!

You may have heard the rumor that she is reliant on Songque for her performance to be good and she does benefit quite alot from Songque it's only true if you are going for competitive rankings in Myriad.

Having Songque (Who requires SS rank mind you ) is not a requirement for the large majority but I will say that Songque makes the team alot more fun and flexible.

Elysia ELF is actually able to keep up in a single rotation test, but Songque can steal the win depending on several factors.

• Songque has more initial Astral Ring Intensity starting with 30 extra, this could allow you to use Stellar Outburst sooner opening new rotations. She also gives Astral ring Intensity after Stellar Outburst ends ( with a cooldown of 40 seconds )

• Songque will make it possible to use Stellar Outburst two rotations in a row if needed, something unique to her. This means that if you are using Elysia ELF you will need to test if it's better to use Stellar Outburst on the first or second rotation compared to "why not both"

While it is not a necessity especially for Red Lotus abyss where you can end the fight alot faster, it does open up new rotations.

TLDR: It's fine, just not as smooth but definitely not "unplayable" that's a BIG exaggeration.

"But What if I am going for Nirvana?"

If you just want to Retain Nirvana then it's not a requirement, but if you want to try for Myriad that's an entirely different story.

In that case then yes, you would want to get Songque to at least SS rank if you are aiming for Myriad. Nirvana Disturbance is already 515 and will keep rising, you will need more and more rotations which is where Songque can really shine if she gives you an extra Stellar Outburst. Not only does Songque help the Thelema DPS team but she also helps the Senadina DPS team.

Furthermore, if you are the kind of person to copy runs from YouTube then you may find it hard to find runs without Songque.

7.4 ELF Infographic

Keep in mind that this is strictly a damage test, and does not properly reflect the utility gained from Astral OP's in the form of Astral Ring Intensity or SP. Songque does enable you to use Stellar Outburst two rotations in a row!

Rank Ups

Note she is perfectly fine at S0 and extremely strong!

She does not need any ranks to be usable but S2 is a great Quality of Life.

Thelema S1 Rank-up isn't too much to write home about but it comes alongside S2 so I'm not complaining.

It offers some small yet restrictive buffs aimed towards from herself and other characters protected by Wheel of Destiny.

On one hand you could say it's not good because most characters get something more impactful on their S1 like Breach.

On the other hand, this isn't restricted to the user only and could have possible future support potential.

Her S2 is quite strong in some situations, being able to restore all Banquet Enjoyment gives her added rotational flexibility while making it possible to use two more Moment of Indulgence in her Stellar Outburst rotation. If you have SS rank Songque and are looking for an upgrade this is what I would recommend next.

S2 New Rotation + Damage showcase

Thelema S3 is for her leader, it comes with an Independent multiplier and focuses mostly on enhancing her own damage output.

Her SS main feature is the added Rime Trauma on hold weapon, the value of this rank-up is entirely dependent on if you need to Freeze or not, and if you need the extra Rime Trauma to do so comfortably or not. It also comes with 10% Total Damage for herself and her team.

SS damage showcase

This is the stopping point for most players, you will no longer gain two rank ups per duplicate after this point and most of her value is rather frontloaded on her early rank-ups, that being said there are some noteworthy ones post SS rank.

At SS1 she gains more damage to shields, increased by a lot more if you have Astral Ring: Wheel of Destiny activated.

She also increases the teams damage to shields from 65% to 80% so you could theoretically call this a support rank too.

For Thelema SS2 some aspects of this rank-up can be seen as rather ineffective only boosting her capabilities outside of Astral Ring while she essentially always wants to be in a team with Astral Ring.

Thelema SS3 is the same as her S3 in terms of value, except now it costs 50 fragments instead of 25. Like before it increases the effects of her leader and comes with an Independent multiplier while focusing on enhancing her own damage output. If you go this far then you might as well go to SSS to finish her.

Finally, SSS rank comes giving her 10% Ice DMG then making her abilities that restore Banquet Enjoyment deal 30% more Ice DMG ( Basic Attack Sequence 3 / Combo Attack / Tapping or Holding Weapon ATK / Ultimate Evasion / QTE )

Gameplay

This gameplay is not indicative of the maximum potential score, it is just for fun to showcase her playstyle.

If you would like to see a more optimized run I have that here

Stats

The stats used throughout this guide, including the videos are recorded below.

You blinked

Review~

I consider Thelema to be a very valuable pull provided you already have Senadina.

I recommend pulling her if you have or plan to get Senadina, she has high crystal value since she's both a DPS and a support.

She sports an insane range of coverage when compared with Senadina ( see "Boss Coverage" ) while having things in her kit that suggests she will work as a Physical support in the future. She's also the only "Solo DPS" in this game with a unique fast paced actiony playstyle and absolutely amazing animations.

Pulling her effectively means you get a cheap DPS and an improvement to your Senadina.

If for some reason you don't have Senadina, pulling her is fine but keep in mind you will lose access to the Phantom / "Solo DPS" mechanics. I personally do not recommend pulling her from a Nirvana viewpoint if you don't intend to get Senadina in the future if you don't have her. The Ice team isn't as fun to play in my opinion since it removes alot of what made her fun and unique.

That being said my opinion isn't your opinion and if you enjoy her in that team you should be able to retain Red Lotus just fine with it but assuming you have geared supports. Just be sure if you plan to get her regardless of what team you plan to use with her that you have her weapon, Thelema is extremely reliant on it without any good alternatives.

Pull Priority

For a Pull Recommendation please refer to the graph below.

My Explanation:

Songque is prioritized before S2 since it makes a larger impact on her team and the overall gameplay while enabling new rotations and strategies to a greater extent than her S2 does. While it can't be used in the "Ice Team" you really want to aim for one of her Astral Ring teams in the long run anyway, if you are set on using her with Jade Knight and Kira then you could opt to skip this step. Keep in mind however, Songque will also be the best in slot for the Resonance team when she supports Sena~

Moving on from there you would then want to aim one copy of her to get her from S0 to S2.

Her S2 ability is similar to Songque in the sense that it changes her gameplay and opens up new possibilities and high value.

Being able to restore your Banquet Enjoyment to full stacks after casting her Ultimate makes her rotations alot smoother and makes it possible to use "Moment of Indulgence" up to 2 more times per rotation. While the improved flexibility is the main highlight it also comes with a good damage increase to the next "Moment of Indulgence" after using her Ultimate.

That brings us to her Weapon Synergy, while it's not nearly as strong as her S2 it's the next best value due to the Independent multiplier and Initial SP cost for Ultimate being reduced which is actually good in Memorial Arena~

This weapon will also benefit her when she's being used as a support since it makes enemies take more damage from "characters on the field"

And Finally, that leaves us with her SS Rank up.

It's situational, the main benefit to having this is the increased Rime Trauma on weapon Hold which will make a large difference

on bosses that it's actually needed, while not doing much of anything on bosses where it isn't.

In those cases the only benefit from it would be the slightly increased Total Damage for herself and her teammates

Thelema Pros

• Very high very flexible DPS with Insane Abyss coverage and a low skill floor / high skill ceiling.
• She's a much needed replacement to Herrscher of Reason while being extremely fun to play~
• She's the first and currently the only dedicated "Solo DPS" where you can play her on the field for long periods of time.
• Large amounts of coverage, the combination of Sena + Thelema has the highest Abyss coverage in the game currently.
• Thelema can function as a DPS or as a Support which provides her more intrinsic value and more future-proofed.
• You can look at her as "DLC" for Sena making her team alot better and fun while bringing DPS value of her own.
• She may be needed in future teams due to her support capabilities.
• She has the new Jumping mechanic letting her avoid certain attacks that cannot be evaded otherwise.
• She's not SP reliant like some characters were in the past ( HoH or Mobius ) she will scale increasingly well in long fights.
• It's quite easy to build a team for her and cheap + accessible to new players, instead of needing to build two ice supports you only need to build Sena (assuming you don't have her built already) with Coralie being completely free.

Thelema Cons

• She's not the easiest character in terms of possible optimization, she has a low floor but high ceiling in mechanical skill. I personally find this to be a huge plus but some people may not.
• She is very weapon reliant, more so than normal characters.
• Thelema has a high reliance on Senadina so if you don't have her or plan to pull her then I would recommend you skip her.
• If you are aiming for Myriad she has a high reliance on SS Songque.
• If you really care about competitive Memorial Arena like Top 20 ranking then she has a reliance on weapon Sync for SP.

What if I have Herrscher of Reason?

This is a popular question I have seen many people wondering if they can use Herrscher of Reason instead with her Divine key instead since she's farmable after all. Unfortunately there are a few issues with that way of thinking and that having Herrscher of Reason is essentially a non-factor when considering if you should pull Thelema or not.

Thelema is the intended direct replacement for Herrscher of Reason being leagues ahead of SSS Herrscher of Reason even when she is just S0 rank. Herrscher of reason released on August 15 2019 back in patch 3.3. It's been over 1700 days since she was released and while she did get a Divine Key weapon it does not nearly make up for the chasm sized gap in performance.

Another one of the biggest issues with this way of thinking is that completely disregards her current support capabilities for Senadina and her future support capabilities for Physical DPS / World Star DPS / Wheel of Destiny DPS. It's true that we don't yet know to what extent she will be able to support but you can infer some things just by looking at her kit and gear.

Finally, and perhaps one of the biggest factors is despite them both being Mech + Ice type... Herrscher of reason doesn't actually perform well on any of her bosses like Raven or Symphony Kevin / Symphony Hellmaru.

Even on bosses that used to be Herrscher of Reasons' like SSS Huodou now Thelema has a huge gap, HoR has nothing left.

It's sad to see the end of an era, but it's been 5 years since she came out it's time to let her rest after carrying Mech Ice so long.

I will go over Thelema's coverage in the Phantom and "Domain Resonance" team in the following section.

Abyss Boss Coverage

Closing

That's all for this guide~

I really love this character, she's so flexible and complex which I enjoy the ability to work on and optimize my rotations.

She is probably my favorite character alongside Senadina so I am glad they work so perfectly together.

Thanks to everyone that follows or leaves a like I really appreciate it!

If you have any questions feel free to message me here or on discord "Kithicide"

Check out my other Guides!